Discuss Christianity, Preaching & Christian Related Issues or HappeningsDiscuss christianity, preaching, practical living issues, ethics or morality, challenges, being a christian, christian related happenings .. [Post Christian Forum].
Message of the Day:- 1 Timothy 6:6-10 - "6But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. Link - Cult Watch.
Read Revelation. Put it this way, you need to read Romans, and also Genesis to understand why bad things happen. We live in a fallen world, cursed because of sin. The whole creation groans under the weight of sin. Natural disasters are part of this fallenness of the world. It's part of God's judgement on Adam's rebellion, who is our ancestor. Read also Jesus' words in Luke 13:1-5 for an answer that puts the ball back into your court.
Okay.
If you say it is God's judgment on Adam's rebellion (i.e: natural disasters are God's active attempt to punish sinners), why does he do that to people who are saved? The fact is that the disasters doesn't discriminate between Christians and non-Christians.
God might not have thought that he is able to use a specifically-directed lightning bolt to personally struck down those who are guilty, to show who's the boss.
If you say it is God's judgment on Adam's rebellion (i.e: natural disasters are God's active attempt to punish sinners), why does he do that to people who are saved? The fact is that the disasters doesn't discriminate between Christians and non-Christians.
You need to understand that Adam's rebellion brought about the curse, which is really death. The thing about natural disasters is not that they occur, but that people DIE. Death is what we are reacting to, and rightly so, for the Bible teaches that death is the last enemy to be destroyed. Death was NEVER part of God's original creation. Death is an intrusion, it is the wages of sin. Death comes to all, whether you die peacefully or tragically, and death is what humans are upset with. We abhor death and dying, because it separates people and puts an end to one's physical existence. Christians have every reason to treat death as an enemy because the Bible teach it so. We recognise that death comes to all, and that Jesus came to die for us, so that we may live. The hope we have is that while we may die mortal we will have life immortal when we receive the resurrection of our bodies. But what about an atheist? Death is natural, in fact, death is the means by which evolution progresses. An atheist has no words to comfort people in suffering and facing death, it's the law of the jungle, survival of the fittest. Your life has no meaning, so accept the fact of death. Why cry and mourn for what is natural and part of your evolutionary heritage? Yet atheists still cry for the deaths of loved ones, and in such instances we know that their faith has been betrayed.
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Originally Posted by Chadley Krakka
God might not have thought that he is able to use a specifically-directed lightning bolt to personally struck down those who are guilty, to show who's the boss.
The Bible never teaches that God will shelter His own from every harm. If that were so, then Jesus would never have died, nor would we read about the heroes of faith in Hebrews 11. You speak about justice here, but where does your sense of justice come from? Surely not evolution, for evolution does not produce any ethics. You don't have to worry about God showing others that He is the boss. God will do that in His own time. But will YOU be facing Him in fear when that time comes, or will you be seeing Him with gratitude that He has saved you in Christ Jesus?
An atheist has no words to comfort people in suffering and facing death, it's the law of the jungle, survival of the fittest. Your life has no meaning, so accept the fact of death. Why cry and mourn for what is natural and part of your evolutionary heritage? Yet atheists still cry for the deaths of loved ones, and in such instances we know that their faith has been betrayed.
I have to address the above statement. Atheism is not a belief equivalent with the likes of Judaism or Islam. The idea of "No God" certainly doesn't comfort people in times of distress, and religion is not the only way to help people with their daily lives. There are philosophies which says "I don't need God" and yet is able to help people too.
I have to address the above statement. Atheism is not a belief equivalent with the likes of Judaism or Islam.
Of course not, the contents of the beliefs are so different! But it is a belief system nevertheless, just like Judaism or Islam.
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Originally Posted by Chadley Krakka
The idea of "No God" certainly doesn't comfort people in times of distress
You are right on that! In fact it is even more depressing!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadley Krakka
and religion is not the only way to help people with their daily lives. There are philosophies which says "I don't need God" and yet is able to help people too.
Any atheistic philosophy that results in some humanistic or altruistic actions are such not because of the inherent beliefs of atheism, for atheism in itself does not provide for such a motivation. Rather these atheists do this because they borrowed the moral framework from the religious folks that they are ranting against! This is why atheists are so inconsistent with themselves. They cannot live out their own beliefs!
You are right on that! In fact it is even more depressing!
Oops, I forgot to add that the idea of the existence of God doesn't comfort people either, and can potentially have the same results too (Please don't misquote this and say that I'm referring to the Christian God).
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Originally Posted by Seraph
Any atheistic philosophy that results in some humanistic or altruistic actions are such not because of the inherent beliefs of atheism, for atheism in itself does not provide for such a motivation. Rather these atheists do this because they borrowed the moral framework from the religious folks that they are ranting against! This is why atheists are so inconsistent with themselves. They cannot live out their own beliefs!
Indeed Atheism doesn't provide such a motivation. Atheism is not defined as a collection of beliefs, which religions like Christianity are. Atheism is just a simple opinion that unites those who are skeptical of the existence of God (i.e: They do not believe in God). In short this is a straw man's argument.
And why did you use the phrase "borrow from moral framework of the religious"? That's in your view. In my view, religion is a product of mankind and any derived morals need not be discarded as they are still useful to the progress of society. In fact, I can make my point even more simple in a short sentence: X is good doesn't mean X is inherently true.
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Originally Posted by sujkop
Now it is my turn to wonder, are you, Chadley Krakka, macko in disguise? Same type of atheism beliefs. Just wondering also.
Oops, I forgot to add that the idea of the existence of God doesn't comfort people either, and can potentially have the same results too (Please don't misquote this and say that I'm referring to the Christian God).
So if you are not referring to the Christian God then I see no further need to respond to this comment of yours. I have no interest to defend any other god.
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Originally Posted by Chadley Krakka
Indeed Atheism doesn't provide such a motivation.
Glad you see that too. Atheism is downright pessimistic about life. Of course there are atheists who are optimistic about life, but that's not because of atheism, but inspite of it, i.e. such are simply being inconsistent.
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Originally Posted by Chadley Krakka
Atheism is not defined as a collection of beliefs, which religions like Christianity are.
You are wrong. I am sure that if I ask you what kind of things you believe in as an atheist you can give me a list, which would have a core of similarity with other like-minded atheists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadley Krakka
Atheism is just a simple opinion that unites those who are skeptical of the existence of God (i.e: They do not believe in God). In short this is a straw man's argument.
You know what an opinion is? It's a subjective judgement on an issue which is not based on facts. But I think you are spot on, for atheism is indeed mere opinion!
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Originally Posted by Chadley Krakka
And why did you use the phrase "borrow from moral framework of the religious"? That's in your view.
Indeed that's in my view, and I am of the view that my view is correct and that your view is wrong. In any case, atheism in and of itself can produce no moral values or standards, so you must be borrowing from others. If not religion then what?
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Originally Posted by Chadley Krakka
In my view, religion is a product of mankind and any derived morals need not be discarded as they are still useful to the progress of society.
But can you tell me why are humans incorrigibly religious? Is religion a mere invention of man or is man simply religious to the core because that's how he was made? In every tribe and culture we find man in religious worship. It is the atheist who lacks a good explanation for why this is so.
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Originally Posted by Chadley Krakka
In fact, I can make my point even more simple in a short sentence: X is good doesn't mean X is inherently true.
This kind of statements are MEANINGLESS if you do not put them in some kind of contexts. If I substitute X for Durian it reads "Durian is good doesn't mean durian is inherently true" but what in the world is that supposed to mean?
I won't reply to some of the arguments as I already covered them in other threads.
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Originally Posted by Seraph
You know what an opinion is? It's a subjective judgement on an issue which is not based on facts. But I think you are spot on, for atheism is indeed mere opinion!
Lol. Same with Christianity. Everything dealing with metaphysical beliefs is considered an opinion.
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Originally Posted by Seraph
But can you tell me why are humans incorrigibly religious? ... It is the atheist who lacks a good explanation for why this is so.
Why refer this to Atheists? Psychologists might provide a good explanation anyway. Humans are religious because of how they evolved socially over the past thousands of years.
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Originally Posted by Seraph
This kind of statements are MEANINGLESS if you do not put them in some kind of contexts. If I substitute X for Durian it reads "Durian is good doesn't mean durian is inherently true" but what in the world is that supposed to mean?
Are you comparing similar stuff? We are talking about beliefs here not likes and dislikes.
To add on to this I might want to share a bit of non-offensive satire in the form of a movie review and additional comment. The review was posted in the Entertainment forum section, as shown here.
How is it related to suffering? Well, Christians liked to refer to the fall of A&E as the root reason why suffering exists, saying that God is blameless and that it was all part of a great ultimate plan he had for us, which will all be revealed in the end yadda yadda.
Since that is all true, here's my additional comment for the movie review of The Dark Knight:
Praise God for the punishments inflicted onto the actors/actresses of The Dark Knight. Before the movie had gone onto the cinemas, God already showed his sign of disapproval by striking Heath Ledger dead. Still, that hasn't stopped director Christopher Nolan from releasing the movie, which promotes murder and immoral values. This is clearly against what the Lord had in mind for us. Thus God inflicted more punishments. Christian Bale, who played Batman, got into family problems and getting charged for assault. Then we have Morgan Freeman who got into an accident, and later on he also announced his decision to divorce his wife of 24 years.
This is indeed retribution and curse from God. An immoral movie which is popular with the world will be received negatively by God and he will show it through punishing all those who are guilty of involvement.
Do you want to distance yourself from my review and comments? I doubt you can.
Everything dealing with metaphysical beliefs is considered an opinion.
Did you just make another opinion?
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Originally Posted by Chadley Krakka
Why refer this to Atheists? Psychologists might provide a good explanation anyway. Humans are religious because of how they evolved socially over the past thousands of years.
But that begs the question, how did you know that they really evolved? Remember that we are still debating on the issue of origins.
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Originally Posted by Chadley Krakka
Are you comparing similar stuff? We are talking about beliefs here not likes and dislikes.
You made a sweeping statement with X, failing to qualify it. I am simply reminding you that you ought not to make such sweeping statements, and that contexts are important.
God and Suffering
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